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Soluna

Gameplan Monday #1

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Today's question for people who have coached NFLHC to answer:

 

  • Have you ever experimented with a 2RB gameplan? If you have do you prefer the pass heavier one (Pistol) or the slightly more run heavy (Flexbone/Option). What is your experience using either? Have you comboed with both attributes of running backs or do you prefer using the same one? What quarterback situation do you think fits it best.
     

For those that have not coaches or have not used that gameplan:

  • If you could create a 2RB system with any three nfl players (QB, RB, RB) who would be your pick and what would be your ideal target for passes (for your QB) and runs (for each of your RBs)?

 

 

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I have never used the 2RB system, but had it been in effect when I was coaching Jacksonville, I very likely would have.

 

The answer to the QB part for this question is Allan Taylor. Pretty cut and dry. I'd be willing to entertain Todd Lester as an alternate, but pretty much AT is where the buck stops for the ideal QB here.

 

 

EDIT: I love having a great Tight End on the roster, and I think AT would tear it up in this set with an elite TE from my experience seeing Jacksonville in 2018 (and previous years).

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I'm not the coach but last season after Booker T. went down we tried using pistol 2 RB as a secondary scheme for a couple games with Greg Allen, a speed back and Marty Keisel, a power back. Neither of them are good but I noticed Allen played better when he was a solo back than when we ran a 2RB scheme. I'm not really sure if it was the mixing of skill sets that contributed to the difference in Allen's play but it's a possibility. 

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ive tried it with a speed / power back and pocket passer.  Didn't like the production I got out of it so decided to stick with just one back.  I think it could work if you have two similar backs and a pocket passer, but you really have to build your team towards it if you don't have a scrambler I think. 

 

Dallas is running it this year to great success, but they have the ideal team to run it. Not everyone is gonna be able to emulate that.

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Never coached 2RB myself (mainly due to never having coached NFLHC). Coming into this season I would've said that I'd want to run 2RB only if the #1 option wasn't strong enough to be a full-time feature back, partially from seeing how Philly and Washington ran theirs. But I'm watching Dallas pretty closely this season. Not a lot of teams have the second RB to make a 2RB viable with a guy like Vaughan needing so many carries, but Adrian Robinson's getting it done. Wonder whether that's going to cause teams to value RB depth more. 

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Agreeing that Allan Taylor is probably the man then Todd Lester. Maybe Ryan Clark or Davenport after that? Its not enough to be just a good runner, but you have to be a threat in the air. Running backs is a little tougher. What would you guys look for in a 2 RB set? Like until it worked I wouldn't have thought Dallas was the ideal since they wouldn't want to take Abraham off the field ever.

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Ive never been the coach at the nflhc level, but give me a power back and a speed back in a 2RB set, and id be happy. The Power back would hopefully be running inside more often, and the speed back would take pitches and outside handoffs. Then on passing downs, the power back would hopefully pass protect, while the speed back (think a Jaz Durant type player) is catching passes in the flats or on screens.

 

I could also see two different ways to go at QB with this. A mobile threat (think AT/Lester, perhaps to some extent Ryan Clark) could run a good read option out of this, but a pocket passer (Murphy/Barkley/Watkins) could keep a defense honest about having to respect the pass.

 

I'd like to see the Browns run it with Clark/Sean Bell/Nathan Wilson in an ideal world.

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I love this type of discussion, and the opportunity to learn more about the sim.  Thanks for doing this.   I have four separate thoughts/responses to the question:

1.  I used both Pistol and Flexbone with 2 RB in Pittsburgh, but considering one of the backs was Don Williams, I don't believe the results were very useful as far as your question is concerned.

2.  I feel that with a pair of quality RB's, using a 2RB offense should result in more rushing yardage overall, but less yardage for your mobile QB.  I also feel like a 2 RB system might benefit teams with less talented RBs more than teams with a star, as taking the carries away from an average back is a lot better than taking them from a guy like Vaughn Abraham.

3.  What I don't know is whether or not a 2 RB system would remove a FB or TE from the original offense and both RB would be on the field simultaneously, or if it's a "RB by committee".   

4.  I'd love to see my HC in Tampa try out a 2RB system at some point this year, particularly if this season ends up in the tank, just so we can learn more about it for the future.

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I did run 2RB once, but I can't say I'm familiar with it at all. I don't like it from a philosophical stand point. Unless you have two great backs, perhaps one of both kinds, why bother with it? If you have two mediocre backs, your run game is going to just flounder with lack of consistency and no real control over who gets what snaps. If we could somehow indicate which RB goes inside and which goes outside on a balanced setting, that would be good. Maybe add a "Primary RB" and "Secondary RB" section to the gameplan?

 

That being said, I'd prefer someone like Heiden with a split backfield. I'd want a QB who can throw it as well as he can run it and preferably use a Power/Speed split to keep the defense honest.

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1 hour ago, Soluna said:

If you could create a 2RB system with any three nfl players (QB, RB, RB) who would be your pick and what would be your ideal target for passes (for your QB) and runs (for each of your RBs)?

 

QB: Paul Davenport

RB1: Chad Dess

RB1: Asante Sowell

 

From a theorycrafting standpoint, I think this is who I would select for my ideal 2RB system. Davenport is my selection at quarterback for his great efficiency in the passing game, and his dual threat capabilities. Dess and Sowell are two guys that are very similar. Two big, powerful runners that look to punish opposing defenders. The gameplan would ideally be a Flexbone 2RB set.

 

This would only be the building blocks for the rest of the offense. A strong offensive line would be required, ideally top guards to pave the way. A tough, run blocking fullback, and two physical target receivers that can out jump opposing corners and block them into the ground. A strong, physical run blocking tight end to set the strongside edge is important as well.

 

This team would be relatively one dimensional, but it brings a few major advantages over most pro style offenses.

1. Ball Control - Dess and Sowell along with a strong offensive line should be able to plow through defenders, and should the rare passing down be necessary, Davenport's arm should be more than enough to get the first down. Whats the best way to keep an opposing offense from scoring? Keep them off the field. The fatigue build up for opposing defenses should see this offense find better results in the second half of games.

2. Fresh Defense - keeping opposing offenses off the field means your defense stays fresh as well. I think this aspect is highly underrated in today's NFLHC.

3. Smash and Smash Combo - While it is true that having a speed/power combo could stretch opposing defenses a lot, having a duo power combo running into a defense over and over again must be one of the more demoralizing offenses to play against. You know exactly whats going on, but it hurts to stop it. Meanwhile, when Dess gets tired, you only drop it off to Sowell, who is more than enough to keep the pain coming. As defenses wear down, we can see bigger and bigger runs from Dess and Sowell.

 

This team would also have significant disadvantages.

1. Run Game Dependent - Should this theoretical team fall to an early deficit, they'll likely have a hard time keeping up with an opposing offense's firepower. As good as Davenport is, he is not my ideal shootout quarterback. This also means that if an opposing defense specializes against the run, this team could be in a world of hurt.

2. Putting Fans in Seats - Seeing a team execute the run-run-run/maybe pass offense is one of the most painful things to watch in my opinion. Could it be ruthlessly effective, sure! But is winning really important at the expense of entertainment? Isn't the point of watching football to be entertained.

 

 

alienufo, acewulf, Soluna and 3 others like this

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I currently use a 2RB set. I definitely prefer using 2RBs only with a run heavy scheme, it splits the carries too much if we don't have ~30 carries a game. Same goes with using a running QB and a 2RB scheme tbh. It seems to me that the offense is most effective in helping lighten the workload of a feature back, and a scrambler can do that by himself. 

 

To me the important part of running a 2 RB system is RB depth. I don't think it would work well without having a pair of good RBs, two average guys would be pretty ineffective. 

 

 

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I haven't run a 2 RB set in th NFL, but I at least understand the philosophy of the Pistol 2RB set (at least I think).  

 

I think Rome is right, I would want Heiden to be my quarterback.  He's mobile enough to keep the defense honest, but he also seems to make really solid decisions.  This is important because in my pistol I want a power back and a speed back.  The quarterback's decision making will be an important aspect in who gets the ball when. I think both running backs need to have be fairly versitile.  I'm partial to Marcus Barry, he's shown me so far that he can run and catch really well.  If I'm making a realistic pairing I would probably go with Durant from Green Bay - he's showing a lot of versilitality as well.  Heiden is going to make the right decisions, he can throw well and keep the defense off balance.  Barry gets the bulk of the carries, and Durant comes in with 7 or so carries. 

 

I could totally not understand how it works, this is just my interpretation of it.  

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I've never tried a 2RB set. A scrambling QB seems like a more reliable way of keeping 2 running threats on the field. We've never had 2 RBs that I would want to feature anyway.

 

If I were building a 2RB team from scratch I'd roll with Todd Lester, Asante Sowell, and Jaz Durant. I don't think there's a defense in the sim that could stop that group. Sowell can pick up yards up the middle even when everyone knows he's getting the ball. Durant has great agility and is probably the best pass catching RB ever in the sim. 

 

Picture this: play action fake to Sowell up the middle. Durant slips out into the flat behind a WR streak as Lester rolls out underneath. Who do you cover?   Touchdown. 

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1 hour ago, Duncan345 said:

I've never tried a 2RB set. A scrambling QB seems like a more reliable way of keeping 2 running threats on the field. We've never had 2 RBs that I would want to feature anyway.

 

If I were building a 2RB team from scratch I'd roll with Todd Lester, Asante Sowell, and Jaz Durant. I don't think there's a defense in the sim that could stop that group. Sowell can pick up yards up the middle even when everyone knows he's getting the ball. Durant has great agility and is probably the best pass catching RB ever in the sim. 

 

Picture this: play action fake to Sowell up the middle. Durant slips out into the flat behind a WR streak as Lester rolls out underneath. Who do you cover?   Touchdown. 

 

And this is why San Fran is currently on a gigantic win-streak and the current favorite for the title. 

 

I agree almost completely, minus the bit about the running threat at QB. We have been experimenting with it all season (preseason as well) and it can work with either a pocket or scrambling QB, just depends on your preferred run/pass ratio. For us, Blacknall has succeeded a bit more as a solo back, but we're moving Kenneth Farr into the RB2 spot to take advantage of a) our lines' zone-blocking strength; and 2) the inside/outside slider. Jerry Rambo simply was not effective going between the tackles. He was a solid pass-catching back, but Blacknall has showed him up there as well. I think 2RB is helpful to keep RB1s fresh and provide a different look for the defense, but ultimately is too personnel-dependent to be of value universally. The options it creates are advantageous, but only with the right personnel, and against a poor run defense, like ours.  

 

Here's what I would do, in the NFLHC. If it were available in CFBHC, it would be a different plan:

 

Pistol 2RB, Balanced OLine (run/pass pro); Pocket/Hybrid QB; two Speed backs, hopefully with pass-catching skills, and at least one that has shown he can run inside the tackles well (Chet Henson), rating should be 82+ for each, and within 5 points of each other. Your Oline could suck a lot, and this would cover up for them plenty. You'd need 1 good WR, and 1 decent slot WR. 

 

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